Ninety percent of all debtors feel some sort of moral requirement to repay their debt. In recent years, as Wall Street investment firms and Big Banks have led us down a tempting path to buy now, pay later, more and more people are coming to the realization that Economics is just a game, usually with the biggest players holding all the Aces. Fast forward to 2010. In the current economic downturn, people are becoming less sympathetic, even downright angry. Banks have stifled credit lines and are hoarding money, all the while borrowing heavily from the American workers, who are the backbone of capitalism and prosperity. We have given them extremely generous repayment terms and they have repaid us by reducing our available credit, canceling $0 balance credit cards, and raising fees for everything along with the kitchen sink. They have refused to work with the federal programs to stem the tide of foreclosures, and made haste to beat the new consumer protection laws. Those whose hard earned credit scores have taken years to build and are watching them plummet through little fault of their own will get the point I make here. While investment firms, insurance companies, and large corporations (think Detroit) “too big to fail” are filing for bankruptcy protection right and left for restructuring, debt reduction, and/or debt forgiveness, we convince ourselves that this is the right thing to do, our economy is dependent on it. Whole countries and provinces are insolvent and bleeding red ink (think Greece), but we simply don't attach the same sense of moral obligation or standards to these entities as we have been taught to hold ourselves to.
Much to the Big Banks dismay, and precisely because of the buy now/pay later offers that have flooded our mailboxes and other advertising gimmicks pushed on us over the last fifteen years, debtors are tiring of this game. There are billions of dollars at stake as consumers are waking up and getting their newly revamped credit card statements in the mails showing exactly how many years it will take to pay off their credit lines. Sticker shock sets in as they can see what the CC companies have tried hard to diminish, ie: decades can be spent paying off debt, in fact, if you paid your accounts like the good little boys and girls you are told to be, you will have paid off your original debts and charges by as much as 100 fold. Truth is, the good credit score is a sandpit, with lenders selling credit lines and credit reporting agencies cashing in on selling your personal information. How could big banks hand out thousands and thousands of dollars in unsecured credit lines? They weren't. They were investing in the moral stigmata of your playing the credit score game. They were investing in your future earnings. They were making paper money off thin air, all they needed was your signature. 90% of us have our souls attached to our good name. Many have sold it to the devil. They have spent years building up these social castes, rewarding more points to those who played the game well, punishing the poor with the greatest burdens, higher interest rates, less available credit, more repossession, foreclosures, and demerits.
Since 2002, the year the credit card apps and pre-approvals began flooding our mailbox, We have paid out $59,725.01 to credit card companies on the buy now, pay later plan. Lines of credit were soaring, credit scores steadily climbed higher toward that elusive 750+ club. This past year alone, in thirteen short months from January 09 to March 10, $13,288.01. In late 2007, early 2008, the banks began reducing lines of credit causing scores to suffer. In 2010, we are still more than $53,000 in credit card debt (didn't I pay anything?), Guess what? We don't have $50,000 worth of neat new stuff, can't get any neat new stuff, and furthermore, I didn't even buy $50,000 of stuff, much less over $110,000 worth. I would be dead before paying down this load, leaving my spouse to do battle with the legions. How moral is that? Over the last few years I have watched our disposable income shrink as we paid out more and more to the credit card companies while keeping a watchful eye on our income, our progressive years, and seeing our standard of living slowly decline. I am smart enough to know that this wasn't a good game of chance we were playing. I held all the jokers in a jokers aren't wild card game. Don't get me wrong, we are not destitute, we are not hungry. Thankfully, a lawyer tells me this is not a prerequisite. We were current with all but two of my creditors, and those were by choice. As the waters swelled deeper, and the waves threatened to beach the boat, and then with Kay's sudden retirement, I now had the resolve to do what we needed to do months if not years earlier. I took the first step toward resolving our cash flow problem. I contacted a bankruptcy attorney.
I've done the homework, I've done the research. I even entered into a hard to get out of trial debt settlement plan with Credit Solutions scam company a couple of years ago. I had to close a long standing savings account to keep these scammers from stealing my hard earned money. They promise to help you settle your existing debt for a percentage of your outstanding debt. My advice: Don't do it! You can ruin your credit all by yourself and save a ton of money. Most banks/cc companies don't recognize, do business with, nor are they legally obligated to do business with any third party negotiator. If you just insist, there is only one company that I might suggest, one the credit card companies play along with, and they have teamed up with C.C.C.S. as well as they are also authorized to do pre-bankruptcy counseling for the US Bankruptcy Trustees. Look them up if you want: MMI http://www.moneymanagement.org/
If you are interested in a review of a few debt settlement companies you can read this short one: http://www.topconsumerreviews.com/debt-relief/detailed-reviews.php Otherwise, see a lawyer.
Wipe out that debt in a Chapter 13 or Chapter 7 and do it legally and as painlessly as possible. Don't worry, you will reduce your debt and save yourself a lot quicker than any other way, and, you will regain your credit. There are pay as you go car lots, there are secured credit cards. It is advisable to have at least one home town loan officer that you are personally familiar with, but this should not be any deciding factor. Here is a good resource for familiarizing yourself with the ins and outs of bankruptcy.
read: http://www.bankruptcyaction.com/questions.htm
Chapter 7- All debt discharged 45-90 days. Check your state to see what you can keep, usually 1 house, 1 car, items with less than $500 in value. Ask a Lawyer!
Chapter 13 – Keep everything you want to keep. If you owe money on it, like a house a boat, a car, or a piece of property, you may have to pay all or a portion of it. Ask a Lawyer! It's free to consult, so be prepared: 3 or 5 year repayment plan. Unsecured debt gets 0-100% of timely filed claims, mostly 0%. Many creditors don't bother.
find: http://www.bankruptcyaction.com/attorneys.htm
Fill out this form: http://www.bankruptcyaction.com/application.htm
These are all the same questions you will need answers for at a lawyers office. You will need most, if not all, of this information so he can better help you and so you can avoid return trips. Also, you will have to do a phone or internet (phone is preferable to avoid mistakes) pre-bankruptcy counseling session ---- Know your budget numbers! (Quicken printouts was invaluable for this) Don't give away vehicles or property prior to filing. Sell them if you must for a few dollars, too little to pay off debt but enough to buy groceries, pay light bill, etc.
I am not advocating bankruptcy. I am saying it is not a sin. It is not the shameful act of cowards. It takes a wise person to find him/her self at this place in life and make the best choice for their family.
For the last several years, I have assumed most of Kay's debt, and some of our oldest. We have assisted them through many endeavors, college not being one of their choices, and we have reached the end of our borrowing power. With Kay's signature on several co-loans, our boys have footholds, but the banks have also diminished, through the credit score model game, her ability to help. In this community property state, my debt is her debt, her debt is mine. Check yours.
Tried uploading a few pictures but the uploader failed so hope I haven't bored any of you silly :) We are in good health and spirits, we have a way to go.
27 comments:
Addendum: In a chapter 7 you can get into "avoidances". I referred to it but want to make it clearer that if you give away, transfer, or sell property, automobiles, etc.for less than fair market value in the 1-3 years (depends) prior to filing, the Trustee can have the transfer "Avoided", that is, he can take it back, sell it at fair price and give the money to your creditors. Tell your lawyer about any such things and the circumstances of the transfer.
In a Chapter 13, the Trustee might make you pay what the property was worth to your creditors in your payment plan.
Tax assessment value is used for land deeds.
For those who may be faced with these kinds of decisions in the future, lets consider your options:
1. Do nothing. Stop paying unsecured creditors. Put up with the phone calls, letters, and possible lawsuits and garnishments for up to ten years or more.
2. Stop paying credit card companies. Put up with phone calls. Save cash for payment plan or settlement. They will offer reduced payment plans after 30 days, sometimes shorter. They will negotiate better deals directly with you after 90-120 days. Bad credit 7 years. Consider the tax ramifications*.
3. Sign on with a debt management service. Hope for the best. Find a reputable one and keep paying for everything. House or car payments will not be in this. It is consolidation of unsecured debt, that's all, with a possible reduction in interest and a stoppage of late fees and phone calls. Your credit is damaged for 7 years, minimum. Consider the tax ramifications*.
4. Sign on with a debt settlement company. Find a bad one, you're screwed. Pay them 10-15% of your total unsecured debt up front while you stop paying your credit cards. Get tons of phone calls, get hate mail. Get your debt sold to a third party collector, maybe a forth and fifth. It will take you this long to build up cash enough to settle, the original creditor will be long gone. Bad credit for 10 years or more depending on how the debt collectors behave. It can come back to haunt you. Find a good one? fewer phone calls, hopefully. Save cash feverishly for settlements. *You will get a 1099-C (debt forgiven) which is considered as income. This alone may make this option too burdensome.
5. Hire a lawyer. Sleep at night. zzzz He's way cheaper than the debt settlement guy, and can be paid for in a chapter 13 plan.
Chapter 13: 3 or five year re-payment plan, no phone calls or letters. Roll car payments into plan, one small note. Starve credit card companies. No 1099-C. Credit bad 7-10 years. Chapter 7: Start over in 90 days, keep your homestead and unpaid vehicle. No 1099-C . Credit bad 10 years + 90 days.
6. Chime in with your own solution.
Great article, and timely. There is only one kind of credit. BAD - bad for you. If one is buying and paying off the purchases every month before interest is assessed on it, or in a interest free time frame, then they are not actually utilizing credit, but cash. Those are just cash plans not too unlike writing checks on Thursday knowing the payday will go in Friday.
Home loans are genuine use of credit, and automobiles to a point. Avoid everything else like the plague.
Again, great article.
Thanks. Thought I'd let everyone share in our "misery". I've limited this to family contacts, but If you know anyone who might benefit from the advice and can't see it, copy and paste or let me know and I'll add them up (That sounded like FB talk didn't it?).
Already did # 3. just paid off several cards thru CCC but only after another 6 or 7 yrs with them. still it was a breeze compared. it's unfathomable that its gone.
Glad you did something. As you can see, it takes a very long time to go this route. We did CCCS several years back ourselves, before Kay was working. I actually borrowed my way out of that situation too. If you think you salvaged your credit scores, think again. You have prolonged the healing process, and paid off a bunch of people you didn't necessarily have to. It does take away some pain though, just to stop the harassment.
Good luck, and congratulations. We went through chapter 7 at the beginning of 2005. I only wish we had done it sooner, before stubbornly throwing away thousands and thousands at dischargeable debt.
Seems any route you go you throw something away. we bought a laptop at radio shack oh so long ago when we knew nothing at all abt credit cards. in fact that was the first which was quickly followed by more. you see how long it took us to pay off; abt 10yrs. probably the most expensive laptop in all the world. and even after finally paying in full, i'm regretting all the money they took from us. shoulda filed many yrs ago. Jack even talked to them about a settlement for payoff after abt 4 yrs of it. they had absolutely no mercy. cruel and unusual punishment is what it was. they deserve prison time.
Same here. We will see how everything goes.
ha, ha. Sounds like the 200 pound microwave we bought 30 years ago. Daddy wouldn't eat stuff nuked in a microwave back then, I don't know if he ever warmed up to them.
yeah, we got some friends that have 11 kids and still wont go the microwave. probably smarter than we are.
I believe that debt forgiveness aka bankruptcy is necessary for the poverty reduction of any people. I'm glad you got some weight off ya shoulders. We understand this is civil rule for an ancient nation but the principle is still valid.
Deuteronomy 15:1–6 (NLT)
Release for Debtors
15 “At the end of every seventh year you must cancel the debts of everyone who owes you money. 2 This is how it must be done. Everyone must cancel the loans they have made to their fellow Israelites. They must not demand payment from their neighbors or relatives, for the LORD’s time of release has arrived. 3 This release from debt, however, applies only to your fellow Israelites—not to the foreigners living among you.
4 “There should be no poor among you, for the LORD your God will greatly bless you in the land he is giving you as a special possession. 5 You will receive this blessing if you are careful to obey all the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today. 6 The LORD your God will bless you as he has promised. You will lend money to many nations but will never need to borrow. You will rule many nations, but they will not rule over you.
Clearly America has become a debtor nation. Perhaps it is because they have allowed the moneychangers to impoverish the poor through excessive usury.
Interesting how that parallels the fair credit reporting laws
applies only to your fellow Israelites
i knew there had to be a catch!
:)
i started to edit that out for you but i figured .. what the heck
For everybody else, there's bankruptcy court.
My Aunt & Uncle ( Moms Sister) Just filed...she had credit card companies calling their home. They were trying to get really personal..was telling my Uncle your wife is hiding things from you so on and so forth. It got very ugly. Also took one of their credit cards that has several thousand limit on it...and put another credit card debt on it.
Crazy stuff!!
That sort of thing is against the law and can cost the collector fines paid to the debtor. We didn't let ours progress to that point.
We had so much fun this past Wednesday. We had a 3 hour class room session in the morning, then a 341 meeting at 1 o'clock. No creditors showed up for the creditors meeting (341). Just us, the lawyer, a transcriptionist, and the trustee.
Under oath we answered about 15 simple questions, the same questions we were given beforehand on a form we had to fill out.
The class room was freezing but I still nearly dozed off the last 20 minutes or so. Still waiting for any changes the trustee might make to the plan the lawyer drew up. The only thing he questioned us on was the value of the property we transferred to Curtis.
Our attorney who had said we didn't have to say anything as he would be doing all the talking, did help out at this point (a little).
I saw Kay winking and smiling at him from the corner of my eye, so, hopefully, nothing too bad will come of this ;).
The room was packed with people in their 20's to people in their sixties. It's a rather sad state of affairs.
Lol- @ the Aunt Kaye comment...You do what you have to do! lol...Times are tough! ;p
June 10th is the confirmation hearing, then 60 long months @ $350 to discharge. With Kay retired, it's the only plan I could reasonably afford. Not too bad. 2 cars, a lawyer, and fifty thousand dollars gone in 60 months.
Update: As the lawyer predicted, the trustee we wound up with entered an objection seven days prior to the confirmation. He had 4 points: 1. We had not made our pledge of tax refunds for 2009. 2. We had not given him a copy of the land transfer. 3. We had not submitted all the payroll check stubs for Kay prior to filing. 4. We did not show any income for the co-debtor.
Scrambling to get the paperwork together, several faxes, two emails, and a phone call to the lawyer later, I was now prepared to challenge the objection in court, ie: Copies of the Western Union Money orders and date of cashing for the tax pledge. A full legal size copy of the land transfer. Copy of the final payroll check. Copy of proof of no income and unemployment determination and payments. In the phone conversation with the attorney, he simply said, let me work on this.
I counted 52 souls in the courtroom, some standing, and there were more in the hall seating areas. In what we perceived as a roll call, about 40 of us were called to the front to face the judge for his admonitions. He says, "It used to be that we called each debtor case individually, but with over 28,000 cases in the Western District alone, with only three trustees and one retiring, that is no longer the case". He continues, "Everyone that was called forward either has no objections, or all objections have been resolved, it is hereby ordered that your filing is confirmed". Sweet music is playing in my ears. He dismisses us from the courtroom, I have to catch Kay's elbow to keep her from returning to our seats, and we are on our way.
As we turn to exit, the seats are full again, as more people have come in behind us, and I am stricken by the gravity of this moment. Young, old, middle aged, handicapped, all wait their turn to face the judge and trustee. Some are returning for a second, even third time and have serial filings, some are so obviously poor. The hallway seats are still nearly full, with the speakers blaring out the proceedings inside. There is something troubling in the way the system has been set up to make billions from these small people, and how they wind up here.
We stop at the Hotel Bently, as I have volunteered to attempt a troublesome repair on a 6" chiller line, and by the time we get home, there is an email from the attorney thanking us for using his services. I send him a thank you in return. Don't know how he resolved the objections between Monday and Thursday morning, but we are grateful for the quick confirmation and personable attention to our case. Anyone having need of such services, I recommend him fully; Don Mckeithen Jr. has political family, as in John Mckeithen, 49th Governor of La, and Fox Mckeithen, Secretary of State.
I am assured by Mr. McKeithen that as long as we keep up our plan requirements, we should have no problems.
I wish again we could have done this in 36 months, or even 48, as part of the requirements are no new credit and our cars are going to be pretty old, especially my truck, in five more years. We have to maintain insurance on two vehicles, one of them being the focus Anthony has, as they are included in the plan. We have to send in our tax returns and refunds for two more years, I have to keep payroll garnishment for five years.
All things considered, we are better off. I often use the line I got from Bob Carroll so many years ago..."If a working man has $200 in his pocket, and all his bills are paid, he is a rich man". I teach my boys this, and I am trying to practice this. It is a good feeling to be able to pull real money out of your billfold instead of plastic when you need it. Like the 3 set samurai swords at the convention center I couldn't do without, or the run by the junk yard to pick up a part for one of the boys. I always put it back, so I am never broke. How do you define rich? Never broke. We are rich in spirit, we are rich in our hearts, and my Samurai swords look real good.
love it
Glad it has worked out for you.
Thanks. From just a few days after we consulted with the lawyer, the phone calls and letters quit coming. Any stragglers were easy, just telling them we had retained a lawyer, and giving them his name and number was enough. Because the law protects co-debtors, not even co-signors get any statements. They have to remember to make their payments on their own. Of course, we can petition the judge for a court ordered statement, but don't see a need right now.
We have 58 more months of no credit charges, so it will be a learning curve. Kay is getting offers of new credit already, I opted out long ago. The credit bureaus are intent on making their enormous profits from selling personal information anyway they can, but it is our goal to never get in this position again. I do advise anyone having difficulties meeting their obligations and basic needs to go talk to an attorney, lay all their cards on the table, and see what their options are. I have a new found respect for Lawyers and what they do. For anyone brave enough to do their own case, it costs $300 for a filing. I'm not that brave.
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