Thought I'd lead off with this video I ran across while digging for something else (using God as an ATM machine). In light of some recent conversations, it was noteworthy enough that I wanted to post it here to get some input on this matter. It's been a while here since we put our brains and experiences together on an interesting subject. While some might disagree with Mr. McVey, I'd like a little more than "I disagree", please. Tell me why and what it is that doesn't sit well with you. I'd like to know.The subject matter is taken from Colossians 2. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, http://bible.cc/colossians/2-20.htm
I know this is over 2000 years old. If it's not in context, or out of date and doesn't apply to us, tell me why you think so...
28 comments:
just a short answer (more explanation later if needed): I agree with this guy. Altho specifically, the "ordinances(here)" are the Jewish dietary code & special days observation (verse 16) that was found in Torah AND additional commentaries on the Torah by rabbis. But there is a principle is good in many areas. Man's self-created systems and "add-ons" will never get one close to God but can create spiritual pride which will defeat the Work of the Spirit in a believers life. The only way to be a new creation in Christ is to die (thru repentance) to flesh, vain traditions, & sin by listening to the voice of Spirit which uses the language of the Word of God. The moral law of God isn't a mere ordinance but the revealed nature of God.
That's a nice way of putting it. There are certainly some guidelines, but we are to find them in Christ.
Every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: but I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. I Cor. 9:25-27
They measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth. II Cor. 10:12, 17, 18
Very interesting topic. Too often we try to make black/white every aspect of the Christian's life. A law in a book(even the good book) can be black and white but God wants his law written on our heart. Jesus was our example.. He submitted himself the the Father's will(John 5:30)...thru the empowerment of the Holy Spirit(Luke 4:1). We must walk as a new creation because we are regenerated.. regenerated (new genetic makeup) unto new desires, goals, passions that is directed by the Word and empowered by a Spirit-filled life. Not committing murder doesn't mean we are walking in love.
I agree with this man's overall concept, but it seems that he has focused on his pet peeve. As much as I'd like to jump on his band-wagon at times, II Timothy 2:15 tells us that we must study and use all the scripture so that we aren't ashamed as workmen. And, we cannot forget that we are servants to the one we obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? " (John 8:34, Rom 6:16) and that we should not continue in sin just because we have grace. The grace of God was not provided to allow us to live a guilt free, but rather a sin free life. Our commission was to strive to live Christ-like. He was sinless and in being made free from sin and able to live in holiness and going to heaven is a reward/fruit of a holiness life style. (Rom 6:22)
So, what rules is he talking about? Let's say, in the Pentecostal Church, the one that most often comes to mind when we speak of church rules--there are many ledgers to live by. This, in my opinion, is done bc preachers are afraid that saints won't live righteously without being policed. It is a scary situation when you feel as though you are the one responsible in getting a group of people to heaven. When I was growing up, I never heard a messages with rules in it. And, there were "qualified" Christians even to our standards--believe it or not. Christianity happens inside the heart of man, and how we live is a demonstration of worship more than any thing else. I love it. More later maybe.
I think you just agreed with his message.
That's what I said in my first sentence. I do believe, tho, that Christianity is living Christ-like, and if that means that we follow after the rudiments of God's word, then so be it--his word being chock full of rules. Rom 5:14 Tells us to grow up and figure out what's sin and what's not. "But strong meat belongs to them that are mature even those who, through experience, have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." So there must be some kind of system or rudiments to organize our walk through life by.
It is a little difficult to get to the root of his beliefs through this one video message. As for pet peeves, he has many it seems. 101 videos, no less: http://www.gracewalk.org/articles.asp?columnid=6277 He does speak of the same things you do, although there seems to be a heavy emphasis on grace, which is all the more reason to look unto what he is talking about. http://www.gracewalk.org/apps/articles/web/articleid/67905/columnid/6277/default.asp
I'm sure I will enjoy watching his videos. I do, without doubt, believe that there is nothing that we can do to give our lives redemption. Christ did that. We just live a life of testimony and worship. This man might just set me free. :)
i have yet to listen to the video, but reading the posts i am inclined to agree that the epistle to the colossians was written to right the wrong of being led into ceremonialism as opposed to the life of grace through faith. the epistle to the galatians has a similar theme, and it is noteworthy that paul spent a significant portion of his ministry defending the gospel against judaisers who just could not handle the thought that one could be acceptable in the sight of God without the rabbinical traditions and mosaic codes.
and i agree that grace saves us, and sin damns us, however, let it be known that it is incredibly difficult to be lost when one sincerely loves God according to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
That's what I said in my first sentence. I do believe, tho, that Christianity is living Christlike, and that means that we follow after the rudiments of God's word--his word being chock full of rules. Rom 5:14 Tells us to grow up and figure out what's sin and what's not. "But strong meat belongs to them that are mature, even those who are experienced have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." So there must be some kind of system or rudiments to organize our walk through life by.
It's a short video. And, as to "it is incredibly difficult to be lost when one sincerely loves God according to the gospel of Jesus Christ." Amen. Yet, this scripture makes me think: Hebrews 6:4-9 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the holy ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
And this one too: Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end...
it's always a matter of context. read the epistle again. same issue here as in the other epistles. there were many who were being convinced that the grace of God led people to the law. The primary purpose of this epistle is/was to establish the superiority of the gospel over the law/moses. within the context the point is that when once one experiences the truth of the gospel and then wanders away from it not into the worlfd, but into the keeping of the law, he has crucified Christ unto himself. if the cross of Christ has become of no effect to you, then it will have no affect on you.
Notice galatians 5: 1- 4
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
you will notice that the "yoke of bondage" is not sin is these contexts, but the law.
romans 7: 4 - 6
So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God. When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
Admittedly, paul combines the phenomenon of sin to the work of the law here in romans 7, yet the inescapable fact he illustrates is that the law engenders bondage to sin because it leads to the self-righteousness of works instead of the imputed righteousness of grace through faith. as you read through to romans 8 you find that the carnal mind is the one that is rooted in the notion that good works, even the works of the law, are contrasted to the mind of the Spirit, which is one that is centered on the efficacy of the cross of Jesus Christ. once again, these scriptures do not speak of sin as carnality, but as the consequence of a false center for faith, ie, to trust in the work we do in pursuit of righteousness rather than the liberating work of grace through the cross of Christ.
it is incredibly difficult to be lost when one sincerely loves God according to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Very well said.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
I think, we begin to blur the lines between rules and sin. Rules haven't saved anyone in a very long time, b.c. What happens is we are taught that the rules are the way to salvation, and are a prerequisite to being saved, post holy spirit. It's a sort of backward view of looking at things. No one is advocating living sinful lives. What I am saying is perhaps we need to take a deeper look at the biblical meanings and teachings of Christ, and what grace was about.
I fully agree. the apostle john knew this. he said
1 john 3: 8,9
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
I appreciate the contextual usage of the passage you've cited. you'll notice how the deceitfulness of sin relates not to the commission of unrighteous acts, but to the blindness to the truth that law keeping imposes on those who trust it.
Bravo for this observation.
I think a helpful observation can be made when one looks at how paul contrasts the fruit of the Spirit to the works of the flesh bearing in mind the context of the epistle to the Galatians.
For paul, the works of the flesh are manifests due to the frustration of the gospel by the efforts of law-keepers, the more law oriented you are, the more sin committing you become. afterall, every new law placed on the books guarantees additional offenses.
"every new law placed on the books guarantees additional offenses"
That reminds me of my facebook post edited for clarity
Perhaps we think in similar circles with some things. . .
One doctrine that is not taught that gets to the root of "rules vs grace vs sin" is REGENERATION: to beget, born.. this is the "new creation in Christ Jesus" concept. It's not just a spiritual status but as if the Earth was destroyed and created anew.. our old desires, wants, lusts, etc. are no longer in control of us..and God has birthed new desires, wants, goals, etc. That is way it's called Fruit of Spirit (gal 5)..it's the nature fruit (not works) ofa Spirit-filled life. Part of Pentecostals' problem with sin is the teaching to control sin vs. teaching to abandon old ways..(because they are dead in Christ). Rules to keep us from what we crave will never work... but relationship that is built upon love...and a desire for the things of God is prooof that we are new ... our deepest desires (not temporary temptations) reveal who our daddy is...
Excellent point!
I like your profile pic Aunt Dolly.....
thank you, pretty girl.
Now that you're back, Viola D, comments??
She's thinking....
must be homework....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wIV-sh00Ac&feature=related
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