A little reading, a little verse, and a little rambling.
On first glance, 1Cor 12 looks to be concerning gifts, and specifically, gifts parceled out amongst the members of the church. We've all heard it preached this way, but the more I look at it, the more it appears to be speaking of something more. First, I'd like to put in perspective that the church is not a building, the Church is God's people. We are the Church. 1Peter 2.5; 1Corinthians 3.9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. Disjointed though it may be, I am leading up to something here.
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost :1Cor 12.3.
That is an extremely broad statement, possibly encompassing many more than we like to give credit to. There are many that profess to be Christians, and thus profess Jesus as Lord. I am not singling anyone out, my intention is quite the opposite. I am simply pointing out that we might need to take a broader view of humanity if we are to spread the will of Christ. We proclaim oneness, but our words and actions are divisive. 1Peter 2:16,17; As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. Sorry Aaron if I took that out of context :).
I borrowed the following paragraph. Overlooking that this guy is talking about the trinity, I liked the way he put this comment together so well, that I didn't think I could do it any better. The title to his commentary was... Many Voices, One God. His concept was good, but in the end,he failed to come to a proven ending. So, definitely taken out of it's intended context, I think I can fit this train of thought in here:
There is much that we need to learn about the whole emphasis on unity, on oneness. How do you arrive at oneness by rejecting what does not belong? That's how we Christians have tried to achieve unity: arriving at truth by refutation. That's why we have so many heretics in our history. We want to say so many things are wrong in order to establish what we think is right. We cannot handle plurality. Plurality is a very big problem for the monotheistic religions..[insert Churches, Denominations here]
1Co 12:4-11 “But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all. But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit. For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; and to another faith by the same Spirit; and to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; and to another workings of powers, to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; and to another kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues. But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires.”
The Douay-Rheims Bible substitutes the word gift for graces, which can put a little different interpretation on these verses....
4 Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit;.....And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors? 30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.
A piece of fiction(also borrowed....
The story is told of Yuri Gagarin, the first Russian Cosmonaut and the first person to have gone into orbit and in outer space. When he came back to the earth, there was a reception for him in the Kremlin. During the course of the reception, Nikita Khrushchev, then the general secretary of the Communist Party and the head of state, slowly led him in the study and said, "Comrade Yuri, you are the first man to have gone into space. I want to ask you a question, and I want an honest answer from you. Out there in space, was there a heaven? Were there gates of pearl? Streets paved with gold? Angels? God? Did you see anything like that?" Yuri became very grave in his face and said, "Comrade, I cannot tell you the lie. Unfortunately, there is a heaven. I saw the gates of pearl and the angels there." Khrushchev said, "Well comrade, this is what I always feared. But you know that you cannot say this to anybody else, because the Communist Party depends on NOT having heaven up there." Then he was taken on a world tour to further propagate this great achievement of the Russian State. He also came to the Vatican, and he was given a reception in the Vatican and a private audience with the Pope. The Pope also took him aside and asked, "Brother Yuri, you are the first one to have gone into outer space. Now tell me, did you see a heaven and God and angels and Peter standing at the gates of pearl?" Yuri was reminded of the warning given by Khrushchev, so he said, "Holy Father, I am so sorry to tell you but there is no such thing up there." And the Pope said, "This is what I always feared. But you know you cannot talk about this outside."
It is possible that we take a very narrow view when we adopt the sectarian blinders. I just hope that we haven't taken such a narrow minded view, and made ourselves so lofty, we are using our liberty for a cloak of maliciousness. I am particularly drawn to 1Cor 12, verse 31 here, where we are being told that if we seek better gifts, God will show us a better way.
If you think I am trying to arrive at some misguided conclusion that gives me some particular wide birth to not living both a clean, and upright life, seeking God's will, I'm not.
Of late, everywhere I turn I see ladies that remind me of a lady of the church named Ramona(No, she can't possibly have that many sisters). There is something extraordinary in the appearance and modesty of this duplicated lady which sets her apart from the crowds. I have seen men which possess this appearance as well. Obviously Christian, no doubt. I have said before that the purity these people exude is a beautiful thing. The joy and liberty they have is enviable, and I believe that this setting apart is not due to some hobbling tutorship in doctrine, but as verse 31 says, they have sought better gifts, and have been shown a more excellent way, inclusively. Your thoughts are always welcomed.
17 comments:
I'll read this more slowly to make sure I'm getting your point... here is a couple points that jump out.
1)
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost :1Cor 12.3.
This statement was within a Caesar-cult that could get someone killed by saying anyone was lord except Caesar, of course. So anyone with the boldness and clarity to say "Jesus is the Lord" is doing so by the Spirit of God.
2) Oneness is a very misguided term. It has taken a turn to be a code word for New Age Unity, pane-theism, etc. I'm not a oneness in that sense nor do I have ill toward someone using the term trinity if they explain it in a monotheistic way. Trinity isn't in the bible but neither is oneness.
inclusive or exclusive? Us, oneness ppl, have thrown away a lot of great Bible loving Christians simple because they didn't word their theology exactly as we do. Hopefully, God will grant grace to cover our quickness in judgement of others.
otherwise.. unless you reword your conclusion. i'm fearful I've missed the main point you are making. ;/
Did I conclude? Never, lol.
You're correct, the article I borrowed on oneness was from a progressive Christian teacher, however I borrowed it because it lends itself to the unity of the people, not a doctrine. I did say rambling.
Anyway, judging by your comment I've quoted, you are getting the point . Although it is a signal of recognition, It is still a separatist comment though, imho.
God may not wish to be bothered with so much separation of his church, is the point I'm trying to make here, and the choices of scripture I've used....And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all....Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.
I use, "us, oneness," to not isolate anyone I'm in community with. I agree there is too much separation in His church. If I explained my views in complete detail I might be excluded from some. :) The only way to find unityin any theological discussion is to find areas of common agreement. Trinitarians and modalists can agree on monotheism. Altho, the trinitarians can be too pluralistic at times as the Sabellianists can deny the glory of the Father, Son and Spirit. I'm for purity of doctrine but somethings are "close handed(fight over)" and other issues are "open handed(stay in fellowship over)".
Rather sounds like democrats and republicans. Even though their are wide differences in philosophy, we forget we are (supposed to be) all Americans working for the common good.
I'm not trying to put anyone in a pickle. ...Stay in fellowship... I like that. How does it go? Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset!
My thinking is leaning toward Jesus did not come to create division, man and doctrine did. What we may find as fighting points may not necessarily be what impresses God (like we can, lol).
the unity that Jesus came to solidify is between God and man.. not necessarily between man and man. Altho, once men do unity with God ..God will bring them together in "love one for another". Doctrine isn't evil..unless it's false doctrine. The main things are the plain things. 1 example of a doctrine worth arguing over.. was Jesus actually divine? Yes! Both orthodox Trinitarians and "oneness" believe the man, Christ Jesus, was actuallyGod as well as man. Any doctrine that denies that would be heresy. So I'll not walk with anyone that denies that "Jesus is Lord".
LOL.. i'm not so much for "killing them and letting God sort his own out." :)
During WWII a mere cigarette burning on the deck of a ship at sea could be the difference in life or death for all aboard on a dark night. These small glowing embers could be seen by the predators of war for miles.
Ironically many work hard for unity as Byron pointed out by the process of elimination, while others let everything in. While Jesus did say that he came to bring a sword and not peace, he also said he had disciples of whom those close to him had no knowledge. Jesus seems not to have had his close-up bunch go over and identify themselves and break bread, but instead seemed to simply say to leave them alone. In the long run one has to accept that the smallest light shining in the darkest world for the name of Jesus has life and death potential for someone. "And I, if I be lifted up I'll draw all men to me" - Jesus circa 33 A.D. (This has been a matter of discussion for a long time)
the concept of Unity is a contentious issue.
In Aesop's Fable, 'The Fox and the Grapes' a fox sees some high-hanging grapes and wishes to eat them. When the fox is unable to think of a way to reach them, he surmises that the grapes are probably not worth eating, as they must not be ripe or that they are sour. This example follows a pattern: one desires something, finds it unattainable, and reduces one's dissonance by belittling it. Perhaps this is why their are so many denominations and a church on nearly every corner... cognitive dissonance. I heard that term used today on NPR during their fund drive, they assume that I am feeling a little guilty about listening but not contributing.
What has piked my interest in this subject again, is the history of the Christian Crusades. Most westerners, myself included, think that waging war was a horrible thing for Christians to do, and denounce the crusades altogether(Christians). Truth is, it was not until after Islam was the aggressor in its own crusades, decades before the Europeans responded with their own.
Historical fact: Mohammed had unified militarily and religiously the whole Arabic peninsula. At his death, June 8 th 632, various tribes tried to detach themselves from the union taking back their own independence. The caliph Abu Bakr succeeded in recomposing the unity, in few months, submitting the command of the army to a capable general: Halid ibn al-Walid, who had been the winner of the Muslims in the second battle between Mecca and Medina. The caliph Omar, successor of Abu Bakr, arranged an accurate ethnic-religious cleaning eliminating from Arabia Christians and Hebrews. http://www.maat.it/livello2-i/mediterraneo-1-i.htm
Liberalism, atheism, and agnosticism, has weakened the religious principles this country was founded on, and we have allowed it through division. Ironically, because of their distaste for the Christian ideology, these same individuals will be fodder for the new world religion...Islam, which has been stuck in the medieval ages since their defeat during the crusades, and they would like to take us back there. Muslims hold a particularly harsh standard on their perception of moral values and sin, unfortunately for these folks, liberalism and non-religion will be high on the chopping block, right along with Christianity.
The point is here, that only with a banding together for a common cause, were the Christians able to stem the tide of Islam, which did, and still holds an edict for world conversion to it's faith or death, you chose. The commonality of the Christian faith is what it will take again to stem the tide of aggression. We can only do this by acknowledging we are one, and there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. Some have fewer gifts, and for some, more is required. But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.
Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding conflicting ideas simultaneously. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Everything that proclaims Jesus isn't true believers. Discernment is always demanded.
2 Corinthians 11:4 (ESV)
For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
Galatians 1:6–9 (ESV)
No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
1 Timothy 6:3–5 (ESV)
3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
2 Corinthians 11:13–15 (ESV)
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Matthew 7:21–23 (ESV)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
My point isn't that we need unnecessarily divide but that we united with the true Church. I agree the threat of Islam is great but Matthew 16:18 (ESV)
" And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.". God will take care of the church if we worship Him by accepting His Word and do our honest best to be doers of the Word. If the Word is the word of God..then sola scriptura it must be.
Well . . . at least we are learning a very cool term. ;o)
yawl old men need to go to bed... hehe!!
My talents are so wasted here, I should find some kindergartners, they'll listen, lol.
@ Byron Peter takes a sword to Gethsemane and cuts off the ear of the servant of Malchus. Jesus promptly restores it to the guys head. How humiliating . . .
And when Pilate questions Jesus the Lord replies, "If my kingdom were of this world would not might servants fight? My kingdom is not of this world"
Jesus has also said, "If I were to ask Him my Father would send ten thousand angels to deliver me"
One has to decide whether the unity of the believer has to do with the church, or the secular world. It is the confusion of the two that has made the menace of Islam the radical death dealing machine that it is. And it is precisely the same that has caused Christianity to do the same deeds in its past. We mustn't forget the inquisition, nor other persecution of those who resisted politico/church conglomerates.
One has to decide whether he believes in the Sovereignty of God, and therefore His ultimate triumph over the march of history to its own drum, or whether we are our own deity.
besides, I'm too old and lazy to fight anymore.
lol..
Of course the true church will survive, civil liberties, not so much. http://tinyurl.com/2dsf7mz
Where? *looks around*
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