Death is a delicate matter, even Jesus tried to broach the subject with propriety when speaking to his disciples concerning Lazarus of Bethany. In John's account, Jesus first tells them Lazarus is asleep: "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep". Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. That not getting the point across Jesus had to abandon decorum and said unto them plainly, "Lazarus is dead". John 11:14
From Ecclesiastes: For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.. Solomon had wisdom granted to him by God, because he asked unselfishly. He attained this wish through repeated sacrifice and prayer (a thousand offerings) 1Kings 3. None more than he would know the common beliefs of the day.
Psalms gives us this - Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Can this possibly mean that the soul will die? Job's skeptical question, "If a man die, shall he live again?" probes that thought. In the next verse he asks, "Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?" That's kind of like the answer Charles gave here when he said "Whether or not anyone sees or knows anything here on earth after they die, whether or not they are conscious, asleep, or tip-toeing through the tulips is not of any consequence to the purpose of the Ecclesiastes". The scripture says our hope is in Jesus. 1 Corinthians 15:51-58. Acts 24:14-15 tells us both just and unjust will arise. John 5:28 says this; Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
In first century Judaism, there was belief that there was some sort of waiting period or holding place for the soul immediately following death. We find this waiting period alluded to in the story of Lazarus, a beloved friend of Jesus. By the time Jesus returned to Judaea, Lazarus had been dead for four days, the point the rabbis claimed no trace of the soul remained in the body. Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already, John 11:17. Did Jesus know grief? Yes, "Jesus wept." John 11:35. As we can clearly gather from the following verses Jesus was teaching a different hope for the deceased. In verse 23-26, Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith to him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Maybe we should go back and read verse 4: When Jesus heard that [Lazarus was sick], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. huh?... Not unto death?
So what about the beggar Lazarus, the rich man, and the Great Gulf? Parable or insight?
We have had previous discussions where we debated the use of the word hell, hades, and sheol, and their intended meanings. As previously stated, it was common belief that there was no life beyond the grave(Sheol, grave, Hades, and hell being synonymous), with only the righteous being raised from the dead in the resurrection. Jews who accepted the Oral Torah had come to believe that those in Sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment.
And he cried out and said, "Father Abraham have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame." Luke 16:24" And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed," Luke 16:26
First century Jews taught that only a "handbreadth" separated the wicked from the righteous in the afterlife. 13 Contrary to this belief, Jesus taught that a "great chasm" or "gulf" separated the Rich Man and Lazarus. Moreover, this gulf was "fixed" which means that it was permanent and immovable. The Gulf represents a permanent separation between the saved and the lost. Neither the righteous nor the unrighteous can bridge the gap to cross over to the other side. Death irreversibly seals a person's eternal destiny, which is just as we've been thinking all along, or have we?
So what can we say of Saul conjuring up the spirit of Samuel after his death?
1 Sam 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him,and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit,and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? Then this spirit proceeded to say that Saul would be joining him shortly - 1 Sam 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me...Did Saul arise from the grave or a resting place, as it may? Probably not, as what he sought was an answer from a medium, or a familiar spirit. 1 Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
Inconclusive, as I have decided to stop here and get some feedback.
5 comments:
purgatory as i understand the catholics version is a in between place for purification of soul so that one would be worthy of heaven. as we can easily see the biblical problems with that... atoning work of Jesus, grace thru faith NOT works etc. purgatory is a very catholic concept and not supported in the 66 books as i see it.
when christians die, their physical bodies are buried in the earth, but their spirits(or souls) go immediately into the Lords presence in heaven. paul says, my desire is to depart and be with Christ phil 1:23 and "we would rather be away from the body and at home with the lord" (2 cor 5:8) when stephen was dying he cried out, "lord recieve my spirit" (acts 7:59 gen 35:18 ecc 12:7 luke 23:43 heb 12:23 rev 6:9) then at christs 2nd, when he returns to earth believers bodies will raised from the dead,made perfect, and reunited with their spirits (1 cor 15:23,51-52;1 thess 4:16-17)
when unbelivers die, their bodies are buried but their spirits go immediately to experience separation from God and punishment for their sins, "it is appointed for man to die once, and after tht comes judgemnt" (heb 9:27; cf luke 16:24-26; 1 peter 3:18; 4:6)
-some notes from esvsb
For lack of a better title, I used the word purgatory only to symbolize the place of transition that many doctrines have, including Christianity. Other than the one reference to Abraham's Bosom, I can't find a lot of biblical support for anything happening prior to the 2nd coming. I will say this though, in Hebrew, the breath of life was the living soul. Jesus tells us that he is the resurrection and the life, yet he says those who believe in him will never die. Just like to probe a little deeper. I will take some time to study the verses you've pointed out.
Sorry I haven't been co-operative here. I'll try to get on it.
No problem. I think we over complicate sometimes by discussing what is a matter of faith. Solomon was right in any regard, we only have the one chance to get it right or wrong here. It really is irrelavent whether we sleep in comfort in Abraham's bosom or have no awareness at all while we take a brief nap. In the twinkling of an eye the righteous will be awakened -first, mind you, then all us underlings :)
The apostle Paul told us that Jesus Christ came to bring life an immortality to light. There has always been speculation regarding the nature of human mortality/immortality. Some say the story of the rich man and Lazarus is simply a parable. Others feel it is literal, and yet others believe it existed until the resurrection of Jesus when the righteous were raised after the earthquake following Jesus death. these, they say, were seen of many and were ascended with Jesus into glory re: '. . . led captivity captive. . ." Eph 4.
There is zero Biblical evidence that purgatory exists. Jesus did not go to hell in the period of time between his death and his resurrection. Jesus preached to the souls in prison of their sins during the days of Noah -
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
Lazurus of Bethany's sickness was not unto death but for the purpose of bringing God glory. Without a reading of the full statement of Jesus one can not see what Jesus said. Jesus did not say Lazurus would not die, but what the reason for Lazurus death was.
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